Interim Police Chief Sue Rahr: "We Have a Lot of Work to Do."
The interim SPD leader says she'll focus on officer morale, recruitment, and rebuilding community relationships as she takes over from ousted chief Adrian Diaz.
By Andrew Engelson
PubliCola police accountability reporter Andrew Engelson sat down with interim police chief Sue Rahr for an interview on Friday, one week after she replaced former police chief Adrian Diaz. Mayor Bruce Harrell announced he was removing Diaz as chief amid allegations of gender and racial discrimination, harassment, and retaliation against Diaz and others at SPD.
The interview took place at SPD headquarters the day after a student was shot and killed in the parking lot of Garfield High School. It has been edited for length and clarity.
Andrew Engelson: Let’s talk about the Garfield High School shooting first. Violence among youth, particularly gun violence in the Central District and South Seattle, has become a longstanding, intractable issue. What do you plan to do to address this problem?
Sue Rahr: What I'm doing now is getting out and talking to as many people as I can to find out how the relationship became so acrimonious—the relationship between the police and the community. I know there are many areas of the city where there’s a very strong, cohesive relationship. But I am recognizing that we have a lot of work to do. In the area of Capitol Hill, the Central Area, there are a lot of opportunities to rebuild there. I'm going to start out with listening. The challenge will be to find the right people, and I will get multiple different perspectives. I don't want to go to a single community leader or a single group and assume that they speak for the whole community. I want to talk to as many different people from as many different perspectives as I can.
I met with officers at the East Precinct yesterday. I went to their roll call to get their perspective on how they feel about doing their job and policing. And I'll be honest with you, it kind of broke my heart to hear how much they feel that they're not embraced by the community. And this is a community that needs support and needs partnership, because we clearly have some public safety issues going on. The officers were—I don't know how to describe it. I don't want to say hurt, that sounds a little bit melodramatic. But they want to work with the community and they feel like the community is rejecting them.
AE: There’s some understandable skepticism.
SR: I completely understand that. What we have to figure out is how do we try to heal that relationship? At this point, there's no constructive reason for me to try and figure out who's responsible for what. The relationship needs mending. I’ve got to make connections with the people that are in a position to help us heal. This horrible tragedy yesterday, it's just so incredibly sad. I hope that maybe we can use that as a starting point to say: We owe this to our children. The police cannot do it alone. And the community can't do it alone. We've got to do it together. So we've got to find a way to heal. I don't have the answer yet. But I'm going to be asking a lot of questions and I'm sure we'll get ideas from people.
AE: I'm hearing that there are also going to be increased patrols in that area.
SR: I want to be really clear about those increased patrols. We're not talking about coming in gangbusters or that we’re going to start pulling people over and doing heavy enforcement. That is not the mission. The mission is: Be present, talk to people, be the visual example of security. We want people to see a patrol car and say: I'm glad the cops are here. I don't think we're there yet. But I believe we can get there.
AE: Officers at SPD have told me morale is about as low as it's been since 2020. And some of that is that Diaz was not particularly well-liked among a lot of the rank and file. I’ve also heard there has been a culture of retaliation against people who’ve spoken up and tried to change things. If you're not going to be making personnel changes, which I think you said at the press conference—
SR: I said I'm not going to change staff at the top right now. If I need to make a staff change, I will make it. The mayor was very clear. He said you will have the ability to change staff as you need to. But I've been here a whole week.
AE: But does that description sound accurate to you—that upper leaders have engaged in retaliation or misused Office of Police Accountability investigations, that sort of thing?
SR: I have heard people use the term “weaponizing” of OPA and things like that. I have not seen that among the upper command staff. I'm certainly not going to cover my ears, if I hear of it. I haven't seen it. I have heard people say: It feels like there's a target on my back. I also have been around long enough to know when an adverse personnel action happens, it’s a very common human response to assume that somebody's retaliating against me. I haven't seen evidence of that, but I haven't had enough time to really dig into it. And I think it's important to know that two things can be true. There can be a legitimate reason to move somebody [to another part of SPD]. And it's possible that there can also be discrimination.
And to be honest with you, we've got public safety to deal with. And I feel like there's been so much focus recently on personnel issues and acrimony. I am trying my best to get people to stop ruminating about that and focus on public safety.
AE: In my reporting, and KUOW’s reporting, and in the 30/30 report, it seems there is a climate of misogyny and discrimination against women at SPD. What, in your short time here, can you do to address that and fix that?
SR: Because I've done work all around the country [and] I've worked in a couple of agencies, I can say it exists in every police agency that I've worked for. I’ve said it before: SPD is not unique. I am not going to pretend like it doesn't exist, because we are part of a larger society and that exists in our entire society. So it would be ridiculous to think that it doesn't exist inside of any organization, including the police department. I don't know where the hot spots are.
There are multiple investigations going on, and lawsuits. Frankly, there are mechanisms to do those investigations and to manage those lawsuits. I am going to look at what I've got in front of me, and what can I influence right now. If I see any evidence of that type of thing I will absolutely respond to it. But right now my focus is that we've got summer starting, we've got a staffing crisis. We have got to get our focus back on public safety, delivering service, not focusing on personnel issues.
AE: Will you fire Kevin Dave, the officer who struck and killed Jaahnavi Kandula, and will you fire officer Daniel Auderer, who made jokes about her death?
SR: I’ve just received the file on Auderer and I haven't read it yet. I haven't listened to the tape yet. So I’m not going to speculate about what I will do. The same thing with Officer Dave. I will thoroughly review those and I will make a decision. That was a question I had for the mayor and the mayor was very clear: These are your decisions.
AE: And what justification would there be in keeping them on?
SR: I can't even speculate because I haven't read the cases yet. What I know is what I've read in the newspaper and I would not make a decision based on that. I do acutely feel the impact. I don't want the community to think I'm just going to look at the paperwork and decide. I feel the impact of those acts, so that certainly is an important factor.
AE: In PubliCola’s reporting on emergency driving, which is what Dave was purportedly doing when he struck Kandula in a crosswalk while driving nearly three times the speed limit, we found SPD’s emergency vehicle operations policies are fairly vague: Officers are just told they have to balance safety against the need to get somewhere quickly. Chief Diaz said that would look into revising those policies to make them more in line with more restrictive vehicle pursuit policies. Will this be a priority for you?
SR: I will absolutely be digging in and looking at them. I really do want to know what they say because I've got a lot of experience in that arena. If an officer doesn't know what the expectations are, then they’re going to make decisions on their own. There are a lot of arenas where we need to give officers latitude, but there have to be boundaries. I don't know yet what the specific wording is of those policies, but I will tell you I am very conservative when it comes to driving fast to emergency calls. I look at a fast-moving vehicle as creating danger to the public. You have to balance: does the thing you're driving fast to[ward] warrant that level of risk? That’s the most fundamental question. How much risk are you willing to take to get there faster?
AE: Among the new city council, the mayor, and the city attorney, there's been a lot of talk about a so-called “culture of permissiveness” that enables criminal activity in places like Third Avenue downtown and in the Chinatown-International District. Do you believe that with low-level misdemeanors, that there should be more enforcement and arrests of people in order to deal with this situation?
SR: I think that we need to give officers some latitude because each situation is completely different. And there are times when you have a person who's causing disorder or breaking the law, and you want to solve the problem. You want to stop the disorder, or stop the dangerous behavior. I think enforcement needs to be one of the options. In many cases it's not the best option. What I don't know now is: How available are those other options? But absolutely, the officers need the option of enforcement if the other options just aren't working.
AE: Are you aware if the city or SPD is negotiating with either the Issaquah jail or SCORE jail to incarcerate people arrested for minor misdemeanors? In general, do you believe there needs to be a place to hold people arrested for low-level offenses?
SR: I have heard talk about that, but I don't know any facts about that. I will say officers need to have a full slate of options. We have to be able to book some people. I don't know yet what that number is. But if the only way we have that option is to find other places to book people, I would certainly support that. I want that option on the table, because if we're going to give our cops a mission, they've got to have the resources to carry out the mission. And I think It's patently unfair to give somebody the mission and they don't have the tools to do it—and then criticize them when it doesn't work.
AE: So you've said recruiting is going to be a top priority for you.
SR: One hundred percent.
AE: One position that you will be recruiting for soon is your replacement. It’s a volatile, lightning-rod position. How are you going to fill it?
SR: One of the reasons I agreed to take this job is I believe this should be the most sought-after police chief position in the country. The climate and the environment in Seattle has shifted. I have had very positive support from city council members, from the mayor's office. I have been blown away by the positive attitudes of the officers. I expected negative attitudes and I am hearing exactly the opposite. Now, I don't want to say they're feeling like they're loved. But what I am getting unequivocally is: We just want to work. Give us our mission. Give us what we need to carry it out.